TMP Original Version of Main Titles (2024)

My apologies if this has already been discussed to death elsewhere. I welcome Thor leading me to the appropriate thread if that's so...

Thanks everybody!

Love and kisses,
Neil

Mike

So some other parts of the score were not recorded digitally? As Spock would say: "Fascinating." Has anyone published a comprehensive history of this score that gets into detail like this? It's my vote for Jerry's best.

That parts were recorded digitially, and other parts not, exemplifies just why V'ger felt humans too irrational to occupy space in the galaxy.

Mick

The recent, newly recorded commentary--posted over at startrek.com--for the director's edition dvd also suggested Goldsmith was receptive to the music edits done for the lightly trimmed V'ger flyovers in the DE. He anticipated those scenes would eventually be trimmed, and so deliberately composed music in a structure that would be easy to edit without drastic consequences...

I was generally very disappointed with the treatment Goldsmith's score got in the DE. It felt to me that, because there were new sound effects, the music didn't seem quite as important and was pushed to the back of the mix. There are some sequences, particularly "Leaving Drydock" where sections of the music are drowned out altogether.

I am also interested in the explanations for the differences in the first appearance of the blaster beam -- in the original film mix, it sounded plucked; on the DVD it sounds struck with a mallett; on the CD it also sounds plucked (but is mixed so low it is barely audible).

Isn't it pathetic I take the time to notice these things?

I do seem to recall having a few cases where the music elements did not seem quite as good as hoped for, but the music was never drowned out. Quite the contrary, knowing it basically carries the movie we kept it opened up far wider than in a normal mix. A recent screening at the Fine Arts in L.A. (after not having watched it for a few years other than m.o.s. at the commentary) reminded me of this. It sounded spectacular, such a contrast to the muddy wash of sound that music seems to have in current movie mixes.

I also remember backing way down with the bridge sound effects for the cues where Enterprise passes through the cloud and over Vger. We just let the music take over. Jerry approved all the edits of those cues, which he did originally think would get shortened because he couldn't believe they'd leave a 5-minute trip through a cloud in the picture. And then it amazed him that I wanted to edit the music first and then have the movie recut to the music. "They should cut every movie that way," he said.

As for the blaster beam, the actual hit in the '79 version wasn't found, but I'd somehow get it back in there again if there was an opportunity to tweak the mix for the HD master. There's never enough time on these things, even with this where the whole argument of doing it was that time ran out in '79. There are a number of minor adjustments to make and hopefully there will be a chance to do so.

Mike

STTMP is a really oddball entry in my video collection--a movie I don't like but which I've watched many times. It's ambitious, but it's not very intelligent--the Enterprise basically shows up at this big thing and parks for what seems like hours before the garage door opens and they meet the heart and soul of this thing, an old radio.

The new effects, while sticking out in a few spots, are improvements, particularly the Vulcan shots. But nothing can alter the basic silliness of the concept, the poor costumes, the stiff acting, the dull script.

The reason I have watched this so often is because it's really the world's most expensive music video. Goldsmith's score has been endlessly praised, but for me few critics have touched on how well it induces a sense of awe. The brass and organ sound massive, and the music augments the effects to create a feeling of incalculable size and power which these tiny humans have to deal with. Goldsmith's music is not only illustrative, but intensely evocative--the music touches that part that makes me wonder what else could be going on inside this thing, where it might have been, where it might go.

It's great reading your reports about the making-of process, I really enjoyed his comments. I liked seeing some of his original score matched to the drydock scene. A great example of a composer needing prodding from a director, needing direction, and coming through.

It's even better to learn that I haven't been imagining that that was a different--not just a differently-mixed--main title take.

I guess it was that "nakedness" that I really liked from the original mix. It's one of those things where you're used to watching/listening to a movie the same way for 25 years and then suddenly it's changed. The score totally OWNED that movie and now it doesn't IMHO. Not in the same way at least. I'm not saying it's better or worse, it's just not the same. I can understand Goldsmith preferring the new version because he never did like his music to stand out too much.

If Paramount chose to clean up the 79 version as it exists on laserdisc then I'd be first in line to buy it. I realise this is unlikely.

The drowning-out moment that I'm thinking of occurs during "Leaving Drydock". There's a moment half-way through the cue where the action shifts to the engine room, there's a door that closes and one of the engineers squeezes through just at the last minute. In the original mix the music is front and centre, in the new version it's barely audible under the noise of the engines!

Actually, I seem to remember that the whole (new) film is mixed rather "discreetly". It's a while since I saw it (I'm having a Trekkie movie marathan at the moment so I need to watch it again) but I do recall having to crank it up more than usual. I do like the new edit a lot, but I do still have a hard time adjusting to the changes after watching the original version SO many times!

I am VERY grateful that the cloud sequences etc. weren't shortened!!!

Here's to the future...

Amer

But all of those films I mentioned were among some of the greatest successes in history. The public embraced them exactly the way they were and saw them repeatedly, and so the exact tempos of editing and the sonic palettes of those films became part of the experience and the memory. It was wrong to tamper with them.

"Star Trek: TMP", on the other hand, was a movie where no one was really defending the '79 version. Most people got used to the sloppily-assembled '83 TV cut but even among fans who appreciated the strengths of the movie, it always seemed to be a chore to sit through. But still a lot of people did see it multiple times, myself among them, and there is something to be said for having an experience that doesn't jibe with your memory.

At that moment in time when the DE was done, the goal was to give Robert Wise closure about the one film of his he felt was unfinished. To him the '79 version was a first work cut and after years of not wanting to talk about it he suddenly brought it up after the "Star Wars" special edition craze in '97. The future of the whole Star Trek property was in question at the time (and I guess it still is) and we were also encouraged to really do something that would boost the DVD market (which was still relatively new). So the combination of those two things really led us back to Bob Wise's original goal of bringing the audience at large to Star Trek. So the DE was done not really with diehard fans in mind, but for viewers who might be seeing the original series for the first time (on DVD) and who would then go on to the features. If the first movie put them to sleep, would they go on to the others, TNG, etc? Probably not.

So with this in mind we set out to chisel away a bit more and hopefully find a better (but not different) movie in what there was to work with. The script was definitely the problem, but I think some very good ideas were in there that might have come out if there were more time to work on the writing. But at the editorial level there were some subtle things that could be done, the main approach being to soften Kirk, to emphasize the people rather than technology, and to make the most out of the epic scale and spectacle that was the movie's biggest asset.

The music was a huge component of this, obviously, but I don't feel the score suffered overall in the DE. At the recent screening I mentioned I was blown away by how the music sounded in the theatre. Interesting that you mention the engineering door shot because we did do a fix on that and a few other areas but the final track with those fixes didn't make it onto the DVD; it went out with the version delivered before that one.

So that's one thing that should get fixed next time around. And don't count out the possibility of a release of the '79 version. An HD master for that existed before we even started the DE and has played on HD satellite channels. As I already mentioned the DVD release of the DE had a specific function of drawing new viewers into the franchise and so it was felt that including the whole '79 version would have taken the emphasis away from the new release, which is why it was decided to included several excerpts instead.

Now, however, what I want them to do for HD is drop all the excerpts and do an edition with all three versions of the picture. In addition to satisfying everybody it would be a great way to demonstrate to certain people based in northern California how another sci-fi franchise should be presented.

Another soundtrack project for TMP would be excellent, but that's a different universe entirely. Remember what studio this is.

Mike

I've got one more for you Mike, if you're still around.

In the pre-DE versions of the film, the pre-title "overture" was a shorter version of "Ilia's Theme" which had a unique orchestration and also differed slightly from the album version of "Ilia's Theme" in its last several notes. I enjoyed this variation, and it seemed to me that the track had been composed specifically for use as an overture.

Whose idea was it to replace it in the DE and use the longer album version instead? Did it have anything to do with the opportunity to replace the plain black screen that had accompanied the overture with the moving starfield pattern? Do you remember the decision-making process regarding this detail?

Thanks!

Bob Wise didn't like having a blank screen for his overtures. His experience was that theatres kept the curtains closed and the music sounded awful. So on his musicals "West Side Story" and "Star!" he came up with images to have on the film. In the latter case it's actually Lennie Hayton conducting the orchestra. Later on video he didn't like the blank screens for overtures and entr'actes but also didn't like it when the word came up on the screen and just sat there. A lot of ideas were tossed around for TMP - something that would set the mood but not be obnoxious. In the end it came down, as it always does, to time and money and we just went with the star field.

To answer an earlier question that was posed, yes, Lionel Newman did conduct quite a bit of TMP, particularly the cues employing electronics, exotic percussion and the beam because only from inside the booth could Jerry tell if he was getting what he was going for. It was also good that Lionel was around because there were long stretches when they were literally sitting around (getting paid) waiting for reels to come in, and having two conductors there made it possible to keep the players from getting antsy. Lionel recorded many takes of the main title just to keep the guys busy. At one point they had nothing to do so they got some symphony out of the Fox library, passed the parts around and started playing. It was an extremely tense set of sessions.

Mike

Well to tell you the truth I thought the blaster beam hit used on the DVD sounded better!

Mike